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Help! I'm not sure where else to turn to for advice.
I can find all kinds of information about appropriate sexual boundaries with your children, but nothing about the reverse situation.
All three of my adult daughters have chosen the poly and kink lifestyle. I love them all . . . but
when I went for a recent visit, I was faced with M's 3 partners and hickeys and bite bruises, L's collection of BDSM books and "love chain" around her waist -- some sort of commitment symbol to the man who lives with his wife in the big house while she struggles to afford her apartment, and now youngest daughter who's planning to move to the same city after college graduation to be near the married couple that feel free to snuggle with her in front of me.
Hey, I like a good time as much as the next person, but this was not the Thanksgiving of my dreams. A big part of me wishes that just one of them might have settled down with a partner, I don't care which gender, and build a life and home. That, of course, is my stuff.
So, where does responsibility lie for boundaries? Must I simply not go see my girls anymore because it's their right (which it is) to live whatever lifestyle they choose?
I can't help feeling that they're all choosing to dance around sex like a giant maypole (yes, I know the reference), central to ALL of their decision making..
I can find all kinds of information about appropriate sexual boundaries with your children, but nothing about the reverse situation.
All three of my adult daughters have chosen the poly and kink lifestyle. I love them all . . . but
when I went for a recent visit, I was faced with M's 3 partners and hickeys and bite bruises, L's collection of BDSM books and "love chain" around her waist -- some sort of commitment symbol to the man who lives with his wife in the big house while she struggles to afford her apartment, and now youngest daughter who's planning to move to the same city after college graduation to be near the married couple that feel free to snuggle with her in front of me.
Hey, I like a good time as much as the next person, but this was not the Thanksgiving of my dreams. A big part of me wishes that just one of them might have settled down with a partner, I don't care which gender, and build a life and home. That, of course, is my stuff.
So, where does responsibility lie for boundaries? Must I simply not go see my girls anymore because it's their right (which it is) to live whatever lifestyle they choose?
I can't help feeling that they're all choosing to dance around sex like a giant maypole (yes, I know the reference), central to ALL of their decision making..
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 2, 2008 - 3:24 PMCommunication is the key, you need to discuss this with your daughters. start out by expressing you support them and want to honor the way they live their lives but explain your level of discomfort and ask them to honor you back by respecting some boundaries. If they know you support their choices they shouldn't have to flaunt them -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Wed, December 3, 2008 - 5:54 AMWell I couldn't say it better. Your advice is very close to what I was about to tell her.
COMMUNICATION.... -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Sat, December 6, 2008 - 4:34 PMI'm sure my mom went through the same issues with me so I'll tell you what worked to keep our relationship together.
She not only asked me to respect that she was new at this but she also gave respect and asked questions instead of making dire predictions or just being uncomfortable.
She never ever said "I told you so" or "That's what happen in those kinds of relationships" when the road of love got bumpy. I'm sure she thought it, but she never said it out loud.
She acknowledged my relationships as valid no matter what I was into. (Bless her heart for that one. I know it must have been tough.)
She always checked in with me and made sure that I felt happy with my relationships; when I wasn't she would help me get out. My happiness was her priority, not her expectations of what happiness should look like.
I love my mom and part of my deep respect for her comes from her facing the challenges of being a parent to a weird kid. Her ability to take me at face value and always see someone she could be proud of was very important to me as a young woman learning to be an adult. Your girls could show a little restraint (no pun intended) when it comes to dumping their lifestyles in your lap, but ask yourself why they didn't tell you about this stuff earlier. -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 9, 2008 - 5:30 AMThere's no shame in setting boundaries for how much we want to know about another person's personal and sexual life. TMI is usually uncomfortable and embarrassing.
You're perfectly justified in putting up some walls and boundaries:
"I'm glad you're thinking for yourself and having fun. But I'm too old and too much your mom for you to flaunt the details of those parts of your life - those are things you can share with your girlfriends, not your mommy."
If your daughters start respecting your right to be kept blissfully ignorant about some of the more adventurous aspects of their sexual lives, it may be easier to deal with kinky books, living situations, and other physical traces of their lifestyles? -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Mon, December 15, 2008 - 3:00 PMI had another thought on this recently. I've noticed my mom really desires to have a stronger more intimate relationship and while I want to develop that, I prefer a lot of boundaries in my personal life. My thought in regards to your situation is that maybe your daughters want to develop more of a friendship with you and they don't understand a way to do that so they have their boundaries confused. I think if you come to a discussion with gratitude that they feel so free around you, and express that, then they won't feel as uncomfortable being called out for their behavior. Also asking if they have any ideas in what different kinds of ways you can foster a closer relationship together would show them that you aren't just trying to close things off on them.
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Sat, December 20, 2008 - 4:01 AMWhen you're in someone else's home, you really have nothing to say about the way they live/carry on while you're there. I would be really offended if someone came into my home as a guest, and then started suggesting I respect their boundaries by changing what I do in my own home because they happen to be there.
It sounds like you have some real issues about judging the lifestyle choices they've made for theirselves. I think you should look inward instead of making them conform to your idea of the lifestyle choices they should make. -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Sat, December 20, 2008 - 11:28 AMActually, you must have skimmed over the part where she acknowledges and says that she respects their choices and takes ownership of her own issues. Nor did she say that she tried to tell her daughters what they should be doing in her presence in their house.
It sounds to me like she is just looking for some good advice for a way to start a dialogue with her daughters about what makes her feel uncomfortable. It may be my right to stick my tongue down my girlfriends throat and smack her ass in my house but I would consider that a little disrespectful if it was in front of my parents, despite it being my house. If these girls love their mother, then it is not a matter of what right do they have to express themselves, but rather how far are they willing to go to make their mother feel comfortable in their home. There is no doubt what their rights are in their own homes. It's simply a matter of being respectful to the person you love who gave a large part of their life to raise you with love. This is not really that unreasonable. She's not wishing they would lie to her nor asking them to change their lifestyles. She does wish that they were in traditional long term relationships but that stems from her motherly concern for her daughters. She wishes it were so, but owns that it is her concern (and not what is 'right') and not anything she has a right to ask or demand of them. These girls are lucky that their mother is not a bible thumping self righteous monogamist. They could cut her a little slack.
Some parents would be just fine with what the daughters are doing in front of them, others would be horrified. Perhaps the daughters should be very happy to have a mother who is so understanding and open. I really feel that this is a matter of preserving everyone's dignity. But yes, the daughters can do what they like in their own home. Maybe they should just go to Mom's for Thanksgiving. -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Sat, December 20, 2008 - 11:00 PMBelieve it or not, although I'm not a very good writer, I am a pretty good reader, and I did see that. What that says to me is that she knew the answer to her question before she asked it. She's not really looking for advice. She's looking for confirmation that it's ok to do what she desires to do even though she knows it's not.
It's obvious from what she has said this is not about too much affection when she is around. If she had it her way, she would also be able to control what they do when she's not around as the bruises and bite marks bother her as well, which isn't something they did infront of her.
So what she really wants is for them to change the way they make love so there isnt' any bruises or bite marks when she comes over, she wants them to change the way they dress when she comes over and make sure there isn't any chains or leather worn, she would rather they not live with a couple they're in love with (or enjoying for now) but rather "settle down" with one partner (probably one she approves of) (as if one can't "settle down" with more than one partner), and they are definately not allowed to snuggle around her anymore. What kind of crap is that?
>>>It may be my right to stick my tongue down my girlfriends throat and smack her ass in my house but I would consider that a little disrespectful if it was in front of my parents, despite it being my house.
--->This is not a question is not what YOU think is disrespectful in YOUR house. This is a question (if similarly applied to you) about what would your mother thinks is disrespectful in your house, regardless of what you think, and should she try to change your behavior in your own home... Nancy's children obviously don't think they're being disrespectful to their mother in their own house.
If she really did come here looking for advice, she'll appreciate my straight foward approach and no bull shit answer, whether she agrees with it or not.
>>>Nancy: So, where does responsibility lie for boundaries?
--->The responsibility for setting boundaries here is yours. You have two choices that don't involve you becoming one of those parents who can't stop trying to control their adult children.
1. Allow your boundaries to be pushed and your comfort level to be expanded. Approach this with an open mind and understand when you were first dating/married, your parents put up with you doing alot of stuff they didn't understand/approve of. That's called evolution. We're becoming more enlightened and less restrained by silly religions that control our lifestyles with each generation.
2. You decide you can't allow them to evolve into the people they are going to become, and you tell them you don't feel comfortable in their home because you dont like their lifestyle, but they are always welcome at yours. If you do this, they might decide having you there is more important than living how they want to while you're there (or before you show up - bite marks and bruises). Or they might decide moms house really is the best place for a visit.
I recommend the first choice. And I hope you have a wonderful holiday season! :) -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 23, 2008 - 1:08 AMI have to say that I am in general agreement with you on this. And while it is not necessarily a matter of what I might find disrespectful in my house, advice was asked for and I only have my own life to parallel understanding from.
Still as many have said, communication is key! Lots of communication! And if you don't want to know, you'd better not ask!
To be more to the point with an allegory, what if this was about the religious choices of your daughters? Would you ask them to hide their crosses, crescents, stars, athames, or whatever trappings they had of their beliefs? In the end, you should avoid having your daughters lie to you and hide who they are if you do not want to distance them from your life. Their choices may be difficult to accept but they are the ones they have made. If you wish to possibly dissuade them from their choices, that will take...communication!
Whatever may happen, remember to be compassionate towards yourself as well as your daughters and their mates. It may not make them do what you wish they would do, but it will keep them and yourself aware of the love you have for each other.
Probably should just go to your house for holidays! -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 23, 2008 - 7:25 AMHey Joe, I aplogize if I sounded snarky in my last post. I didn't mean to imply that your thoughts on disrespect in your house don't apply to the scenerio at all.... I meant to say you were approaching it like comparing apples and oranges.....
If her daughter was here instead of Nancy, asking us if we felt it was disrespectul for them to do that in front of her mother, yours would be a good and well timed example of why it might be. "Well, I would think it would be disrespectul for me to do that infront of my mother in my home, so yes, I thin it would be..."
That's not the situation here. We have Nancy asking us what boundaries her children should set with their mother. At first I thought it was odd she wrote the subject like that, but I dismissed it as alot of people don't have a firm grasp of proper english grammar, and frequently say things that are a little odd. Now as I write this I'm convinced that's not the case at all. She was really implying she thought her children should adjust the boundaries they have with their own mother...
I've discovered alot of parents (mine used to have this problem until I set them straight) don't realize that by the time your child is 16, 17, 18 or 19, you really have done all of the "raising" of your children that youi're going to be able to do. Now days it's even happening earlier... In some cases, they're maturing really young... 13-15 years old sometimes. When your kids reach that point in their life, all you can do is be there for a little guidance and a whole lot of moral support.... But if you haven't already raised them to be the people you wanted them to be, well it's too late now.... Most of the time when parents do that, it's because they didn't do it earlier when they should have, and now they're seeing the results of their parenting and they're not real happy with it, so they try to jump in there and do some parenting, but by then it's way too late. All you're really going to accomplish by doing that is to create struggle and conflict.
And I'm not pointing fingers here.... All kinds of things distract parents from parenting... Social lives, trying to provide for the family, trying to pursue higher education, etc... Then when they're older, a little less busy, and more mature, they all of the sudden decide it's time to jump into their kids life and start parenting, but by then their little baby is 25 years old.
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 23, 2008 - 12:43 PMNancy, I can't help but wonder, is the reason that you want your daughters to "have settled down with a partner, I don't care which gender, and build a life and home" because you feel like you missed out on that yourself? Are you trying to, as so many parents do, live vicariously through your children?
It is true that some of the choices that we make when younger may not prove to be what we really want for ourselves later in life. But sometimes, that is just the "dominant paradigm" trying to instill its dream in us. We then doubt our own choices and end up feeling dissatisfied for no good reason. Many people build lives and homes for themselves without ever following the traditional routes to such.
I understand your concern for one of your daughters, L, with the married man who struggles to pay her own rent. But the questions for your daughter are simply, "Am I happy?" and, "Am I being taken advantage of?" If the situation feels fair to her then let it be. If she finds she has her own problems with the set up, then it is up to her to change it. You can only provide loving moral support. And in the end, experience will always prove the best teacher no matter what instruction precedes it. If the choice is bad for her, then she will learn it. You cannot shelter her from it.
Goat, no offense taken for any perceived snarkiness but thanks for checking. I just get my dander up a little when anyone, including myself, takes a righteous tone without keeping the love there. As they say, you catch more bees with honey that with shit. Everyone will always respond better to a caring approach. I know I prefer it. It makes me feel that the other person actually cares as opposed to wanting to express their moral ascendancy. I know I am guilty of it from time to time as well. Forgive me when it happens.
To All, have a blessed Yuletide, however you celebrate this season! -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 23, 2008 - 12:53 PMI hope you don't interpret my comments to mean I have some kind of moral supreriority complex. I actually believe all morality is totally subjective and no one's moraltiy is partuclarly any better than anyone else's.
The only absolutes I believe in (in terms or morality) is the absolute soveregnty of an adult. And when anyone tries to impose their own morality onto another adult that hasn't invited such intrusion, I get pretty passionate.
I think the only topics I get as passionate about is the seperation of church and state and government corruption. -
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 23, 2008 - 10:21 PMGoat, I'd be happy to saddle up and ride with you anytime! I know that at the end of a long day of iron butt, I'd still be interested in talking to you over a beer, smoke, meal, whatever! Nah, you do not have a moral superiority complex. And your writing is pretty good too.
cheersblessingsharmony-n-joy-n-stuff
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Tue, December 23, 2008 - 10:23 PMSo, um, Nancy? What have you go to say about all of this? You just going to post a topic and run? What steps have you taken regarding your situation? You're awful quiet....
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Re: Sexual Boundaries with your mom
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 7:07 AMThis is interesting, as I've relatively recently gotten to a better place with my parents.
When I was 18-20 or so, I flaunted my lifestyle choices in front of my parents, as much to prove to myself I was ok with them as to try to force them into accepting me. Reading my mum's LJ years later I can see she felt really uncomfortable and worried about me- however, we instigated a good rule for ourselves that we joke about, called the TMI rule.
When it comes to my books, my toys, my hickies and my clothes, my parents leave me be about it. In exchange, I try to keep the toys to a minimum, the books mostly put away, and my hickies as discreet as I can. When we're talking about relationships, either of us can say "tmi!" and we change the subject. This has helped a lot. In exchange, thanks to that rule, my mum especially has felt more comfortable exploring my lifestyle a little more, on her own terms and in her own time, and has come to understand a lot about me that way. We've bonded a lot now, and I appreciate her attempts to "get" me and respond similarly.
I think for the first few years of getting into these lifestyles it's very easy to get sucked in and make it EVERYTHING you're about. But given time, and space to grow, a lot of people grow out of that. :)
